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Bram Lagrou: welcome back everybody to yet another episode of the Commercial Leader podcast. Today I'm joined by an executive, or ex-executive, from a leading global company within the logistics sector. He's based in Singapore. I actually have to mention also that he's an Officer of the Order of Leopold II, which means that the Belgian king thought that the services he's rendered to the country were that exemplary that it was worth a mention, and giving him a token of his personal appreciation.
he's grown a business in a serious, space of time of 30 years. Engineer by trade, right? And, also like myself, born in Belgium, went to university there, and for now, he's been living in Singapore and Southeast Asia for a very [00:01:00] long time. I wanna welcome you, Koen. Koen Cardon, welcome to the show.
Koen Cardon: Glad to be here.
Bram Lagrou: It's great that you've, made yourself available because obviously you are a person that has been very busy, doing the work you do as a CEO of a company like yours in logistics. Could you just briefly run us through the sort of, business you've built with Katoen Natie so that our listeners and watchers can actually familiarize themselves with the commercial leader that you have been for a very long time?
Koen Cardon: So basically, I, built for a Belgian logistic company, their expansion in, Asia. And the services are mainly, I would say, everything from the, between the production of mainly chemical but also other products up to bringing the products into, a port. So [00:02:00] that is everything to do with, operations within chemical plants, transport, logistics, planning, scheduling, and packaging of product.
It's mainly, an operation where you work a lot with, operators and blue-collar workers and drivers. So you need to bring basically the philosophy or the values that the key customer has into that organization and make sure that all your operators work in a safe environment and at high productivity.
Bram Lagrou: Yeah. Brilliant.
Can you give us a number, an idea of the size of Katoen Natie, the business that you headed up within East, Southeast Asia?
Koen Cardon: Yeah.
So we basically started from, zero. today it's an operation with about, 2,500 people. about [00:03:00] 600, 700 people Singapore, with another 200, contracted, drivers.
Then in Thailand about 1,500 people and, more recent also in, Vietnam where we have a more seasonal, business with, 400 people, 500 people.
Bram Lagrou: Wow. Sizable for sure. one thing that I really would like to unpack with you today that I'm sure our audience would certainly value is that as a Western company, like obviously Cartonnaci being originally Belgian, but, from what you said earlier, expanding into 46 countries today, right?
From one country to 46. I can imagine that operating with Westerner philosophies and practices and the likes, then setting up shop, so to speak, in Asia and looking to develop the market there and serve, multinationals from everywhere. what's your experience been basically heading up the ship and starting this all within Southeast [00:04:00] Asia?
Koen Cardon: I would say it goes in, different phases. Prior to working for Katoen Natie in Asia, I already worked 10 years in this part of the world. when the company was going international, I often say that 50% of my time was, for me to explain to Asian staff how Europeans, operate and work, and the other 50% was explaining to Europeans how Asians operate and work.
And it was finding that balance basically between these two ways of working and, make sure that you have, a successful business.
Bram Lagrou: So I hear a lot of communication back and forth to make people understand one another so that they could work together. I found it really, revealing actually, earlier when we, were getting warmed up for our podcast, how you explained that Katoen Natie has become so successful because of one particular [00:05:00] thing.
Could you please expand on that and share, what exactly helped a Western company do well in the Southeast Asian region and why you actually did things slightly differently to what normally people would think?
Koen Cardon: I think the key element that made, Katounaki successful, is basically its culture and the way we work, the way the company behaves, the way the company, communicates its values and lives according to these values.
And that has been the key element. everyone can build warehouses and hire workers and buy forklifts and trucks, but that doesn't mean that you are successful. Our communication with customer is always around what culture we have and what our values are and what their values are. And there are many companies also in this part of the world, but around the world [00:06:00] with...
If there is no match in the values, we don't go further. if the values match It's easy to operate for that company. values include everything around respect. Safety is a pure cultural thing. non-corruption is a cultural thing. So there are countries, there are companies that we felt early on that we could not work for and-
never will work for. but the opposite is also true. The companies that we work for are mainly multinationals. The big, petrochemical, chemical companies around the world. And then you can multiply. Basically, if you're successful in one area, you can start up in another area, and that helps a lot.
And underlying to that, because the company itself is about 180 years old, there's a certain culture. And I [00:07:00] think many people, will subscribe to that, is that, the Flemish culture, and there are books written about it, is a culture of hardworking, being humble and perform. and that is something that we see in that company as well, and that is very well appreciated.
Bram Lagrou: I loved how you shared with me an example where a certain country thought that as you wanted to do business in there, that you'd be okay with putting some money under the table, and you guys said, "No, this is not how we operate." And you really reinforced those values, and you would only work with them if they would be okay with that policy, right?
I think you also shared with me prior that the countries that really still expected a company like yours to pay money under the table, you just decided not to go in to, full stop, right? I really appreciate that from a leader's perspective and a company that has that [00:08:00] policy, zero corruption, right?
I actually remember a day when I found myself on a trade fair, and the vice president that I worked for back then in a manufacturer's environment, he was basically coming in from the same angle as you. We had these three gentlemen in beautiful Armani suits rock up at our booth with a few suitcases, basically asking us, without even looking at our product, "What's the most expensive product that you have?"
And I pointed out to the one which was actually partly designed in Belgium, and they said, "We'll take three of them cash." And they opened up the briefcase and showed me the money, literally. And my VP said, "You know what, Bram? Just thank the gentleman for coming and just say that we cannot help them." And that was it.
And I thought, "Wow, I respect it when business people can walk away from something that smells fishy and that doesn't align with the values and be able to say no thank you for it." [00:09:00] So well done for you guys to also do the same.
tell us a little bit more about, some of the challenges that you as a leader experienced being Flemish originally and then working in the Asian countries.
Koen Cardon: I think, there's a lot of aspects, but one of the things that, predominantly worked for us well in, Singapore is that, you need to grow strong local people, and you should stay away from what I would call the colonial approach, from people coming, from Belgium and saying, "Oh, we know everything better.
We're gonna teach them how to do things." if you do that, First of all, in such an environment, especially Asians, they will not say anything, but they will leave the company. So if you come and dictate how they [00:10:00] have to do things, it's not going to work. If you train them and then teach them why you do specific things, they become very strong and outspoken.
And now, at least in our group of companies, it has become the reverse, where for many parts of the business, they rely on how we work in this part of the world, because the performance has been, excellent. And why has it been excellent? The company has a fantastic track record in Singapore in terms of safety and other things, because once you tell people this is how we do things, they listen and, they will follow that.
And that's very different from, the operators you work with in other parts of the world. so that makes it very [00:11:00] easy to grow a business.
Bram Lagrou: One thing I noticed is that, Katoen Natie is very focused on developing its people and making sure that they're aligned with the company culture and representing the business accordingly.
I found it quite fascinating how you explained how the management trainee program actually worked and what it led to. If you could please take us a little bit on that journey, like what exactly that looked like and what you found that management trainee program has done for the business.
Koen Cardon: Yeah, that's, we could see when we were, growing very, fast.
Again, we went from, 400 people to more than 25,000 people in, in, in three decades. basically you need to make sure that you also have your management structure in place. Now, because of the strong cultures, part of the culture is that we are very close to what's happening on the floor, and you need [00:12:00] to understand what's happening on the shop floor.
So it doesn't work to bring in people from either other companies or, university, graduates who then come and start to dictate to operators how things work. So we need to grow, that management from the bottom, up. Now, how we decided on doing that, is to hire people from universities and said, "Listen, we will let you enter into a management trainee program.
We will, pay you in accordance with what you have studied, but you have to start by working two years on the work floor. You have to work two years on a packaging line or floating containers, driving a forklift."
Now, 50% of the people said, "No, not for me." So this was, the people we thought we didn't [00:13:00] want.
So the other 50% who did it, there was also still a fairly big, fallout. The parents would, sometimes react, "Hey, we paid for your studies and now you work as a forklift driver, where you studied to become an engineer." So th- there, there are definitely challenges with that.
Now, once people have done that for, let's say two years, they are a superstar. Th- they basically know what's happening on the floor. They step into any meeting and they know this can go wrong in that operation, so they know what they're talking about. So they're very valuable.
The issue with that is that, then I would say friendly competitors and other organizations or customers, very much would like to hire these people.
So again talent pool, reduces, but we don't see another option. You train people to be the best, yes, then some of them, get taken by other companies. But the alternative is [00:14:00] not to train and that's not an option. If it's, the longer we work that program, the more it's successful.
and we really by doing that built a global team. So we... these people in that management trainee program in, Houston, in the US, in Thailand, in Singapore, in the Middle East, and exchange these people to work for a number of, months or years in other locations. So you long term it's a winning formula, but-
It's not an easy one.
Bram Lagrou: Yep. I see. And I think you said that one in five ultimately that started still stays with the company. Was that roughly how the statistics look like?
Koen Cardon: that is correct. And you also see because of the company culture, once people stay, I would say, five years, they stay forever.
Yeah. And so there is a... I think especially in the current market, I was once involved with one of the universities here, and I still am, and [00:15:00] I was listening to one of the professors talking and then said, "If you do not work for three companies in the first five years of your employment, you fail."
And I'm like, I was really shocked, but this is really what, companies, or what students are being taught. So yeah, people sometimes... I had good people leaving and I said, "Why do you leave?" you get, "Is it a problem with your pay?" "No." "Is it a problem with what you do?" "No, I like it." "Is it a problem with the industry?"
"No." "Then why do you do that?" I've been told that I need to work with a few different companies in the first two years." Yeah, of course. That, that's, I have no answer for that. But we do see that if you give a lot of opportunities of those individuals within your companies, both geographically and in terms of scope, people will appreciate and will stay.
Bram Lagrou: back to those managers that you guys were grooming up from the start as they left university as an engineer, a law student, or whatever they might have done, accounting maybe, Or an [00:16:00] economist, then you would give them an opportunity to get the graduate program that would run for two years where they do the forklift- Yeah
the packaging, all of those really practical things so they're intimately familiar with the details of it, not just theoretically knowing about it, right?
what happens then? So they've basically done their two years. What happens then with them?
Koen Cardon: Then they will go into a function in the company in, management or in specific things that they feel they are, interested in.
And the company had the luck that they were a fast-growing company, so there are always new opportunities, new locations and things where we can give, young people an opportunity. And you could also see that we have a culture where, we work with quite a few generalists, meaning to say that, as soon as they are in a young management function, they need to know everything about [00:17:00] or a lot about the accounting, the commercial part, the operations part.
So it's very broad. Whereas, if you see young people going in a big multinational, they go into a very, very narrow channel. You are accounting and you do nothing else. You are commercial and you do nothing else. So I think young people are looking for something much more broad, and that is something that we always, clearly managed and planned for all the young managers in our organization.
Bram Lagrou: so very broad obviously then those people can travel the world working out of different warehouses and, logistical sites that are part of the company.
I'm wondering what has been your personal journey as a leader?
Where you think obviously you graduated as an engineer. You did your first 10 years or so, I think, in working in Macao and so on. What has been your personal leadership journey where [00:18:00] certain things you were just not prepared for and you had to learn it the hard way?
Koen Cardon: I definitely had to learn things the hard way.
But if I look back, I have been blessed that, I was always having a very good mentor somewhere in the organization. For a while that was, a very senior, manager within the organization that basically had retired but was asked to come back in the organization in the Hong Kong days, and was basically my mentor because I was, very young to manage a fairly large business, and it helped me, a lot to have him as a mentor.
we had a joint venture company, in Hong Kong, and I got along very well with the boss they call it a tycoon, very, wealthy guy, and he took me under his wings and, I learned a lot, from him as well. So if I look back, I always [00:19:00] had a couple of mentors, that took care me when I was in my, young career.
And then I did switch. I kept always in contact with things outside the company, so I did, quite a few guest lectures at universities and things so that you stay connected with, universities or with the business world outside your core business. So that helps you a lot in the communication with customers and with the employees because you have more of a view of, geopolitics or things outside the narrow, scope that you do as a company.
I've always been very excited, for example, in Katoen Natie we were handling petrochemicals, which is basically plastic raisins that you bring from A to B, which in itself is extremely boring. But if you start to explain to people, this is for food packaging, [00:20:00] and by having good food packaging, you extend life for all kind of food.
It's for medical appliances and it's for, lighter cars, and that is the future. So if you see part of your operation as part of a bigger picture, it becomes, very exciting and that's also a message that I always try to bring to, everyone in the organization. every operator and forklift driver.
If they know what they are doing and what they are part of, they are just much more committed.
Bram Lagrou: Brilliant. you mentioned this tycoon who took you under his wings. He was your mentor.
If you would've been in a position With all of the knowledge and skills you've built over time now, to be able to speak back to the you starting up so many years ago as a manager, what would be the messages that you would wanna share as your own mentor to your younger [00:21:00] self?
Koen Cardon: I, happily mentor quite a few, young people. I would say two, three a year, be that on, an internship and be that, within a company. my message will always be that they need to respect values and one is, a value that I unfortunately learned the hard way, which is, the value of safety.
You must believe as an individual that you can run a business without any single person getting hurt. and I was part of a project many years ago where there were a few fatalities, and that takes away everything. You can build a business, you can do whatever, but if people get hurt or lose their lives in the business you are running, there is no more value.
and the other part of that is that particularly on safety is a science. It's not a behavioral [00:22:00] thing. If you apply the right science, you can work very safely. And with Kato nasik, we've been working for 10 years with hundreds of people in Singapore without a single lost time incident And we received a lot of, awards and, rewards for that.
But to me, that doesn't mean, much. The thing that means most is that I know that all these, people go home safely every day. Because if somebody gets hurt, that haunts you as a leader for the rest of your life. So-
It's the same with the culture of corruption, the same with the culture of safety.
It's the same of, doing the right thing, and those are cultural factors. and in the end, people will appreciate that very much also to work in an organization like that.
Bram Lagrou: I can relate to that. All right, so very important message.
you mentioned earlier how, [00:23:00] there is a bit of a gap between the managers that were groomed inside the business and then the younger people starting up in terms of years and philosophies and the likes.
what's been your experience that younger people now need as they, come to work? what's been some hard found lessons and what do you have put in place to be able to make people from different generations, different ages, so to speak, be able to work together in that environment?
Koen Cardon: I think there are a few, things that we have seen and that they are changing over time. one element is that many young people want to do something new every week, yeah? I had some brilliant young guys working my organization, and I said, "You work on this," and then they come back three weeks later, "Oh, you have something new for me."
and then six months later, "I have something new for me." We do not have new things in any industrial company all the time. You have new ways of looking at things, but you [00:24:00] cannot continue to find new things, and if you continuously want new things, then yeah, you have to go somewhere else or work with another company.
So it's a challenge for the company to make sure that you make it, exciting for young managers and young people, and they also have to understand that, you cannot just do only the exciting things, every day, yeah? The other element which I think has been going through some fluctuations is the work-life balance.
And we see that predominantly in Europe. I do think that, it's not one is right and one is wrong. when I, started off, it was very normal that you worked seven days a week and you never took a day off, and because we did find the job exciting, we didn't, think that way. there was no such thing as, holidays and seldom weekends or working hours.
that was also very [00:25:00] exciting. I see for, young people, yeah, they all want to have a work-life balance. and I appreciate that. I think, maybe we were wrong in the old days to work, all the time. but that's a cultural thing, and I think we've reached a nice balance now where young people say, "Okay, I do have my work 9:00 to 5:00, but don't ask me to do something after 5:00."
that doesn't work in our industry, but if you motivate people, they will say, "Oh, I need to get the job done, and I will be there till midnight if I need to be there." So you need a little bit of both, and you need to find... You need to obviously also reward these people who are more flexible in that approach.
Bram Lagrou: That's really good so far.
we're gonna step back now and we're gonna talk money.
Obviously since you left Katounaki as its CEO for this region, you have, started to take on something different as a partner of, Square Circle. I'd like to, [00:26:00] unpack a little bit, especially the pillar that you mentioned prior, which is the family office.
let's talk a little bit more about family office, wealth management. You're based in Singapore. What are you seeing?
Koen Cardon: what I'm seeing is that, there's a very fast, growing number of, family offices in, Singapore, from all over the world, and because the Singapore environment is obviously secure, transparent, zero corruption, and there's a lot of money flowing into Singapore.
And, families are looking how they can, fiscally optimize that and park some of their, investments in this part of the world. Singapore, you're obviously also much closer to a growing market, and you are basically much, safe. You're close to Indonesia, but not in Indonesia. You're close to Malaysia, close to China.
[00:27:00] So that is the beauty of Singapore that, when you are based in Singapore, you all the time, and I'm talking 24/7, are in contact with people from the region. So there is a very good view on what is happening in the region, which is still a big success story. and for people to invest in this part because, yeah, Europe is not a very happy story.
Neither is, maybe Latin America. And the US is a very polarized story. But I do think that, Singapore finds still always the balance between China and the rest of the world and India and is basically a very good, location to point your radar at anything in the region and find, basically projects and good investments.
And also the opposite is true. Surrounding countries-
...
Koen Cardon: From Singapore [00:28:00] look at Singapore on what is successful. If you are successful with a certain technology in Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines will be, very quickly, adapt it, use that, because if it works in Singapore, it works for them.
So that, that's, I think one of the strengths of Singapore.
Bram Lagrou: these days, what are you going to be doing now? you obviously now enter the new stage of your life. tell us a little bit more about the work that you are seeking to do with Square Circle and your partners.
Koen Cardon: we are looking to provide some advisory, to companies within our network. we have no ambition to, be a consultancy we just closely monitor what is going on. The whole, world is changing very fast because of everything to do with, geopolitics and AI.
that's very difficult to keep up with that. But in the end, it's about, really having experience [00:29:00] and having knowhow in this part of, the world, and we think we can be of, value for European companies and other companies, also local companies, to give some advice and help companies to start up or not to start up.
I've worked, earlier and been, the president of, the Belgium-Luxembourg Chamber of Commerce, and many of the European or Belgian companies that came to Singapore, I told them, "Sorry, I'm going to disappoint you, but you have no place here. The business that you are, offering simply, it's going to be extremely difficult to be successful in Asia.
stay at your turf." but also other companies say, "Listen, you have an opportunity in this part of the world, if you take it from that angle or this angle." I give you one example.
one of my views on that is that, people often come to [00:30:00] Singapore and think that they can be successful in everything, because Singapore is successful.
The opposite is true. Competition here is huge, and you need to understand very well what the government wants. Singapore is a company by itself. The government knows very well what it wants to do, what it doesn't want to do, knows very well what kind of companies or individuals it wants in Singapore or doesn't want in Singapore.
So the number thing that you need to do is to try and understand what the Singapore government wants.
And they have all the government bodies to explain that, to communicate that, and they are very clear in what they want to do and don't want to do. So if you fit in their framework or their plan, there are massive opportunities.
If you don't fit in there, don't even [00:31:00] try. It's a waste of time.
Bram Lagrou: So I'm hearing that the economy and the politics go really very closely hand in hand. You cannot just assume that you might have a commercial value proposition without really having a close relationship with what the government wants.
That's what I'm hearing.
Koen Cardon: that is correct. But, the government is-- and that's different from other countries, does not involve itself in the business itself.
Yeah. So it provides a runway, it provides a regulatory framework for you to do your thing, but you do it fully individual as a company.
Koen Cardon: And with that runway, there's a lot you can do, but you need to be aware of what are the conditions to be on that runway. and once you have that, you can be successful in Singapore, [00:32:00] but also in the region.
Bram Lagrou: Yep. You mentioned earlier how, sometimes people especially in the context of, the wealth, management and family offices, that it was about one family office setting up every day in Singapore.
was that the metric?
Koen Cardon: I think there are now, there were only a few hundred, family offices not long ago. Now there are a few thousand. So there's a lot of, new family offices, being set up, out of Europe, out of the US, but also out of the region.
'Cause you have obviously a lot of wealth being built in, in this part of the region. And, if you look back 10, 15 years, people in Thailand, families would look at Thailand only. Now they want to take a broader look. they want to diversify their investment and look at new technologies and things.
So that has evolved a lot. And again, Singapore is an excellent springboard to do all that.
Bram Lagrou: What would you say that [00:33:00] you've seen that people coming from elsewhere and trying to set up shop in Singapore and the adjacent countries, where have they fallen flat on their face? What have they misunderstood?
What have they, not known about? what was the lack or the gap in their knowledge and expertise?
Koen Cardon: But I have seen quite often that people do not put enough energy and time and money into starting up in this part of the world. You cannot expect if people would say, "Oh, we're gonna start up," business unit in Singapore.
We hire somebody local, we open an office, and the rest, will find its own way. Now, if you ask the same people, how long did it take you to be successful, in Belgium, for example, or in Spain? They say took us 10, 15 years." Then you also need to commit for 10, 15 years to be successful in this part of the [00:34:00] world.
Secondly, you need to find the talent. You need to find the people, that you can trust and that are with you for a very long time. Obviously, young managers have dozens and dozens of opportunities in Singapore, and if they represent a company that comes from Europe or elsewhere and it doesn't really work, then they will go somewhere else, or it doesn't go fast enough, they go somewhere else.
or if they see that it works, they set up their own entity, and then, that creates a unhealthy competition, which is logic. So you need a very strong commitment, and you need to define how much money you want to, allocate to being successful, in this part of the world or not. Many people come in and then you ask, "Okay, are you prepared to put $3 million on the table?"
And they say, "Oh, we'll [00:35:00] see how it goes." And say no. That is not the answer." The answer is, "I commit, I go for, let's say, three years. I invest a million dollar a year, and then I see where I stand after three years." Because if you don't take that three-year or five-year window, the honeymoon is always very fast, ending, and then people are disappointed or we still don't make money and this...
You need to have a much more structured approach to invest in this part of the world and do not go to too many, locations at the same time because often people think ASEAN is one, part of the world with the same culture or even India or China. We're talking 50, 60, 70 different countries, languages, cultures.
So you cannot say, "I'm gonna learn all these cultures and work according to the culture." You need to come in with your own culture, but you also need to pick places where you say, "This is where [00:36:00] I'm going to develop, and I'm going to go step by step."
Bram Lagrou: I'd like to explore the opportunities that you see within the region for Western-type organizations.
What opportunities do you see that are very hot, and what should people consider before they move in, other than being committed to investing the time, money, and resources?
Koen Cardon: I do think there's a lot of technology, I would call that old technology that Europe has that can have a lot of value in this part of the world, especially in the make industry.
and then you need to basically start out with a new approach by applying technology or IT, environments that is already present in, this part of the world. I think many underestimate how fast that China is going in the make industry. It's very [00:37:00] difficult to come up with, say, "Oh, I'm going to make, this or that part, this kind of furniture or this part of, for office things."
you are not going to be competitive. But if you bring that technology to here and you say let's see whether we work with an, Asian partner," and you combine the strengths that China has, that Singapore has as a more of a financial center, and the know-how from Europe, it's a perfect combination.
people are often too modest, when they talk about the know-how that they have and the technologies that they know in Flanders or in Belgium or in Europe for that matter.
Bram Lagrou: Makes sense. I'm fully with you. Yeah ... being a Belgian, myself, I still have my dual citizenship as well.
so look, I really appreciate this conversation so far, Koen.
if there's any closing words that you'd like to share, perhaps again, from a leadership perspective, you've obviously got a serious track record. you've worked with a lot of people. you've helped put [00:38:00] food on the table for lots of families through the work you've done over the years.
If there's any final words that you'd like, let's say, people that are either aspiring leaders or, let's say in, on that middle management journey and they wanna reach for the next level up, what would, what sort of words do you think would be valuable to them right now?
Koen Cardon: my, Hong Kong chairman once told me. He said, "Koen, if you want to be successful, there are two things that you need to do. You need to have respect for the people who work for you, and you need to get respect from the people that you work for." I think that is probably one of the most important, lessons that, I learned.
I think that by showing or respecting the people that work for you, the workers, the operators, the drivers, the [00:39:00] office staff If you show that you respect them, they will respect you also, and you can be very successful as a team. I think, respect is something very high in the value scale of everyone in Asia and more so than in Europe and in the US, I would like to think.
respect for elder people, respect for family. A lot has to do with respect, something that is no more, valued that much in other parts of the world. So I think for young, managers and/or aspiring managers to be, a number of years in this part of the world, it's exciting, it's addictive, it's extremely beautiful, and it's very enriching in many ways.
Bram Lagrou: Fantastic.
I much appreciate your time, Koen. obviously, if anybody would like to reach out to you, LinkedIn is the place to be, right?
Koen Cardon: That's correct.
Bram Lagrou: that's Koen [00:40:00] Cardon. It will all be, part of this episode, so we'll make sure that you have the links to find Koen easily. Other than that, just in closing, Koen, what does the next year look like for you?
Koen Cardon: I thought when I left, my previous job I was going to be, less busy, but it turns out I'm more busy. I'm going to, travel a fair bit for business and try to keep up with everything that is, changing, all the time. I try to educate myself a bit in AI. and yeah, I will, happily work with people, that, can see the same values I see in this part of the world.
So it's gonna be, exciting.
Bram Lagrou: So I definitely hear that you're not gonna get bored and just play golf every day. there's gonna be a lot of interesting things to do work-wise, as well as personal time. if ever you land in, the beautiful South Australia where we have a lot of wineries around, please do hit me up 'cause I'd love to also greet you and shake your hand face to face.
Koen Cardon: That would be a great [00:41:00] pleasure. I come taste some wines there, yeah?
Bram Lagrou: That sounds really good to me. Hey, thanks again for, contributing to our podcast, and all the best in the meantime.
Koen Cardon: Thank you very much.
