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Bram Lagrou: Welcome back everybody to yet another episode of The Commercial Leader Podcast. My name is Bram Lagrou. And today, for the first time on this podcast, I've invited a guest.
This guest has a track record with working for both government as well as private enterprises and not-for-profits in dealing with conflict at home, which is where she started from, or at work, which is the work that she's been doing recently as a speaker, a coach, a consultant, and obviously, a leadership advisor.
I'm very thrilled to welcome Kate Russell to the show. Hello, Kate. How are you going today?
Kate Russell: I'm very good, thank you. Thanks for having me on the show.
Bram Lagrou: Thank you. I really appreciate you coming in. And, we've known each other for a long time, Kate. Yeah. it was probably, gosh, easily 10, 12, 13 years ago where we probably first met at one of those events that we go to.
look, one thing that I've always really [00:01:00] appreciated about you, Kate, is that you have a zest for life. And, and it's very genuine. It's very real. It's authentic. You can sense your care. Your, your heart is beating every time when you have a chance to connect with another human being.
Tell us a little bit more about your philosophy of how you work in life and especially the sort of work you've done, it's emotionally draining, challenging, How can you basically come up and show up every time the way you do so beautifully?
Kate Russell: Oh, thank you so much. That's lovely. I love people.
I love people.
Bram Lagrou: Mm-hmm.
Kate Russell: I've always loved people. I don't like everybody, but I love people, and I think that people are good, and that they are doing their best. And sometimes even with the best intentions, our behavior can be poor because we're stressed, we're defending ourselves, we feel threatened, we're scared.
So I'm always looking at what's behind that behavior. I'm very much of the belief that all behavior is a form of [00:02:00] communication. And when we're our best selves, we're not destructive, but when we are stressed and pushed to the limits, then we see behaviors that are not okay. And it's like, well, what if we saw the humanity in the person rather than judge them on the behavior?
that's sort of been my philosophy throughout my life. So that's why I can love everybody because I know that deep down, all people are good and they're doing their best. some people are more self-aware, and that makes it easier to work with them, and other people are really challenged by that lack of awareness, and usually they've had a lot of other life experiences that contribute to that as well.
So that, that's sort of my, my, my way of working, and I think that that then empowers me to go into almost any situation and go, "I know that this behavior's not okay, and I know it's causing all of this pain in this workplace or wherever we are. But I know behind all of that angst is a good person who's just struggling to be heard in this [00:03:00] moment."
Bram Lagrou: That makes a lot of sense. And, one thing that I really like to borrow from you with your permission- is that notion of difficult people versus people in difficulty. Could you expand a little bit more on that? 'Cause I think it's a beautiful play on words.
Kate Russell: Look, it's very, very easy, and I've done it myself, but it's very easy to label somebody as a difficult person. We see them. they're not part of our tribe. We don't like what they do. They are a difficult person. And in workplaces we label those people quite quickly, and then we create the narrative around them and it's very hard for that person ever to recover from that label of difficult person.
But if we change our mindset and we walk into that situation thinking, "This is a person in difficulty, now I can have some empathy for this person. Now I'm much more curious about what's going on." And so I think it's very important to think about what is the language that we use, particularly as leaders.
How are we describing people in our workplace? And, I think it also helps with our mindset [00:04:00] because we all know that we get more with honey than vinegar, and yet when we're dealing with somebody who's quite difficult, it's very easy to slip into controlling, punishing behaviors because we just want this person to change and we want them to fit into our mold, and they're not going to.
So then if we have empathy and curiosity, it's like, "Well, how can we work with you?" Or, "Can we work with you?" Like there's, we can't work with everybody. But it just creates an opportunity to explore different options that we don't have when we have just defined somebody, bang, you are a difficult person.
Bram Lagrou: Yeah. Very good. And like you say, the language we use is, essential to determine where it's gonna go. I think you always speak of the power of connection. What does that look like when you think of curiosity, self-awareness, genuine care and so on? where does that fit in, that connection piece?
Kate Russell: Oh, connection is critical. We're always looking for connection and we're living in a world where we're so dominated by, IT and phones and, [00:05:00] performative connection when in fact it's not real connection. Connection is when we are curious about the other person.
So I often think that, curiosity is about you, not me. I'm not thinking about me in this moment, I'm thinking about you And by asking questions and being curious, and when you say something, even if I don't think it fits or it feels uncomfortable, I say, "Tell me more about that." Because the more I focus on you and give you the opportunity to share what's going on for you, the more they're going to have trust in me.
But also, it's not about me. you make it about the other person. So everybody wants to be seen, heard, and appreciated. And by being curious and making conversations not about ourselves, and thinking in questions and not thinking in statements, which is hard to do, we then have that scope to build real connections.
And I think if you think about anybody that you have a good, strong connection with- We have curious conversations. Like, we love it when people say, "Tell us more," and we share things with [00:06:00] our friends and family because they care about us, and they ask questions, and they're not judging us straight away by a statement that we've made.
We have that scope to expand and ask, "Why is this happening?" But in workplaces, because work is so personal, because it's the space where we go to play, and so it becomes competitive even if it's not meant to be. But it is. We all wanna show off and shine in that space, and we all wanna be seen and heard and appreciated.
And so we can take some of that competition away if we connect with everybody and so everyone feels safe. We're not having to impress all the time. So I think connection is critically important in the workplace, and I think it is because, it is such a personal space. We think we go there just to work.
We go there to shine. We go there to play and impress. people love it when a boss comes over to their desk and says, "Thank you so much for doing that." Like, it's so simple. It costs nothing. But that connection and being valued and appreciated and seen in that moment, gold.
Bram Lagrou: [00:07:00] So true.
This podcast is dedicated to commercial leaders, so they lead teams. They have certain commercial expectations on them, certain outcomes they need to achieve, and results to obtain with their team. Everybody will easily say, "Oh, sure. Yeah, Kate. Yeah, Bram. A connection, of course.
Yeah, that's important," or whatever. But how well do people actually build connection, especially as leaders,
Kate Russell: Yeah. I think that that's the challenge. And I think it's particularly difficult in a commercial space, particularly if you're new and you're setting up, or you're under financial strain, or you're under time strain.
those are times when it's very easy to get very focused on the task. We've gotta get this done because we've gotta achieve this because, financially we're gonna hit a wall. And I've worked with accountants at the end of financial year, and sort of like all connection goes out the window, and everybody's angsty as.
I have a saying which I've stolen from somewhere, which is slow down to speed up. if you don't invest in the connection, then when you get to those critical [00:08:00] moments, when you are under enormous stress, that's when things are gonna fall apart because people go,
This is too hard. I'm not valued in this workplace. I'm gonna go somewhere else where I'm valued." And I can't tell you the number of times that people have said to me that they have left workplaces because they didn't feel appreciated. That's the number one reason people leave.
Yeah. I didn't feel appreciated. Didn't mean I couldn't do the work, didn't mean I didn't quite like being there and some of the people there. But if I'm not appreciated, what is the point?
Bram Lagrou: And so- So it's not the salary, it's not the- No ... that the company or the product or the service wasn't suiting them.
It's really, like, the way that a leader dealt with them or their peers- Yeah ... dealt with them.
Kate Russell: Yeah. Yeah. And so connection is so important, and when people are in an environment where they feel like they can't leave because financially they can't leave or there's nowhere else to do this job, they feel stuck, and they don't feel appreciated, that's when you have the risk of psychological safety issues.
So I [00:09:00] think slowing down to speed up and investing time in connection is a very important investment in your business.
Bram Lagrou: Excellent. you authored a book. It's called, Leaders Who Lead. Yes. Now again, people could easily think, like judge the title and say, "Well, of course, yeah, leaders lead."
But why did you write that book, and what's the main point it's making?
Kate Russell: The main point it's making is that from where I sit and my lived experience is that most leaders end up as leaders because they're experts in something else. You know, they've got a degree in engineering, they're a plumber, they're a whatever they are.
They have been trained how to do a certain thing. Most leaders have not been trained how to be leaders. They don't know how to do it. They lead from their lived experience. They lead from what they've seen. They lead from their stress levels. it becomes performative. They think they're doing the right thing, but they don't know.
I think [00:10:00] that's fair. It's really scary to be a leader when you don't know how to lead. and so what I often find is because people behave as leaders or they think they're performing the role of leader, they don't necessarily actually lead. What they might do is they might control, they might manage something.
they get things done, they get results, but they are not leading because leading is about how do you look after people. It's about how do you develop the next leader. It's not about, a KPI which says that we've turned $100,000 profit. that is a goal, that's a consequence.
leadership is about taking people on the journey with you and inspiring them and empowering them and developing people as you go. It is not about you, and yet it's all about you. So it is that dichotomy. It's really, really interesting. It is not about you. Leadership is about how you look after and develop other people.
But at the same time, it is all about you because everybody's looking to you about are we okay? is everything happening [00:11:00] okay? Are we safe? And so the way you show up as a leader is critically important. How you present, how you manage your stress, how you manage your emotions, as well as then how much do you empower?
how are you letting people grow and develop? So I think the reason I wrote the book was because I just kept seeing leaders who were working so hard. They are trying so hard, but they're not leading. They're definitely not leading.
Bram Lagrou: So would you say, what would you say they're doing instead?
So, you mentioned the word controlling, managing. Is it sometimes surviving?
Kate Russell: Surviving Yeah ... is the word that came to head. We're surviving. there's, we're just doing what we need to do to get to from one day to the next, and often that might look like we end up yelling at people because we're so frustrated because we're desperately wanting them to achieve a certain goal, and they're not there yet.
And my bum's on the line because there's this deadline that's looming, and if we don't get there, you know, the company might collapse. All of the things. So I'm under this enormous pressure [00:12:00] And I need you to perform. And so then I can do a whole range of different things, and then we go into that fight, flight, freeze, fawn behaviors.
But I've seen very, very senior people in government and in commerce behave in manners which put them at such risk of a WorkCover claim, of a fair work claim because of the way they behave in the workplace because they don't know how to manage their stress, and they don't know how to lead.
Bram Lagrou: So for somebody observing it all, seeing it all, like being the fly on the wall observing- Yeah ... what does that behavior look like, that behavior that is not okay?
Kate Russell: So what that looks like, and it can look like a range of things and this is where DISC is really interesting because often it matches those behavioral styles.
So there was a leader in an accounting firm, and he was a high D. And he literally got very frustrated with the operations manager, and he jumped up and down on the spot. And he said, "You will not speak to me like that." Like it was so childlike, [00:13:00] but so controlling and so, physical.
"You will not speak to me like that." And she was very controlled person, and she just said, "You will not speak to me like that." And she resigned. and the rest of the company then brought me in to do some work with him, and he basically left the company 'cause he would not be-- he just wouldn't be a part of a culture where he couldn't be the dominant one, which was really interesting.
So it can look quite scary. It can look threatening. in that high D state. I've seen, somebody who was a high S. She was, a good woman. She was trying really hard, but she was so overwhelmed by her responsibilities, and her staff were critical of her leadership because she was not giving them enough information.
She was not clear about things. They didn't feel valued. And she sat in a glass office within their organization. She would come in in the morning and go into her office and not say hello to anybody and leave at the end of the day and not say goodbye and basically not talk to anybody all day.
And the staff told [00:14:00] me they were terrified of her because they were meant to go into her office for a performance review and they go, "I'm not going in there. I'm not going in there. She sits in there and looks like she's fuming all day, and she won't talk to us, and we don't know what she's gonna say, and we don't feel safe around her because we don't know how she's gonna respond."
So you can have that very aggressive. You can have the very passive-aggressive, so those type of behaviors. you can see a leader dominate and take everything away from everybody. So it's like, "I'm stressed and you're not doing it, so I'll do it. And then I'm gonna be up till midnight and I'm gonna be suffering, and I'm gonna come in the next day and I'm gonna be suffering a bit more."
So you have a variety of different behaviors that you will see. There's not one size fits all, but I can tell you that a lot of staff have told me when leaders behave in that sort of bipolar manner, so they're really nice one moment and then they're terrifying the next, or withdrawn or whatever it might be, that is the most scary [00:15:00] workplace out.
Because how do I know how to behave today? I don't know which boss I'm getting today. and so that creates so much stress in the workplace, and that's when people leave. They're like, this is too much. I can't work here."
Bram Lagrou: Yeah.
Kate Russell: Or we just head down. I'm head down, I'll do the bare minimum.
I'll do what I have to do, but I don't wanna rock the boat 'cause I don't want this to explode.
Bram Lagrou: People sometimes still show up but check out- mentally, emotionally. And so they don't give- their best. They don't necessarily participate. What I'm hearing, Kate, is, a- and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm hearing a lot of reactivity versus proactivity.
Correct. Reactivity where, you know, the most primitive part of the brain is engaged, the rest is switched off. Mm-hmm. Fight, flight, freeze, fa- whatever, fold- Yes ... or whatever you called it. Yeah. that sort of behavior. And then yes, all because of how a leader makes other people feel.
Kate Russell: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: Yeah ... I find it kind of counterintuitive for a workplace that is so much focused on outcomes, objectives, KPIs, [00:16:00] lead measures, lag measures. Yes. It's also cerebral. It's also very logical. And then when y- when I hear you say this is the whole emotional box of Pandora, that as soon as a leader kinda takes the lid off-
Kate Russell: Yes ...
Bram Lagrou: it just goes to you know what.
Kate Russell: yeah. It does. and it's not intentional. again, the leader is coming from this position of, "I desperately need this to be done." They're a good person. Their intention is good. Two things can be true at once. You can have really good intentions, and you can have behaviors which do not support what you're trying to achieve, and they can be destructive.
and so I work with so many leaders who unintentionally then create conflict in that workplace because, their behavior can result in people fighting each other. Like if they're not clear about what the roles and responsibilities are and you've got two team members trying to impress the boss and they're doing different things.
They're going, "But no, I've got it right. No, I've got it right." And so they end up in conflict. And the boss says, "Well, Kate, we need a mediator in to come and resolve this conflict between these two staff." And I say, "No, you [00:17:00] don't. You need to better understand what triggered that problem so that we can work out what you need to do to lead.
And then we might need to have a healing conversation about how we're gonna work together. but mediation is not gonna fix this problem. Leadership development is gonna fix this problem." It's better understanding how you lead is going to resolve so many of your problems that you have that you think they are generating, that in fact you are unintentionally contributing to.
Bram Lagrou: This is sometimes a bitter pill to swallow for a leader, thinking that their people are the issue, but what you're saying is that it's just a symptom of a root cause that goes back to the leader. Right. Like, if I have to hear this from somebody that I hired to bring her in as a mediator to patch up my team, so to speak- Yeah
when I have that message coming back to me, I might feel a little bit, let's say, my ego might, might, might feel hurt and bruised. It's likely. I might think like, "Hang on. I paid you to do a job, which is fix those other guys and girls." Like, how do you deal with that? Because that's not [00:18:00] always easy as a trusted advisor, Kate.
Kate Russell: I ask questions. I build trust very quickly. So I go in and I speak to the leader, and I find out what they think the problem is. and I start sowing some seeds. So like, "Tell me more about different things, but also have you seen this problem before?" I'm very much about how do I build trust, and I see everybody as good, so I ask lots of curious questions.
And I ask questions about how did you end up in leadership? And I often make the joke, most of us end up in leaders because we're really good at something else. And they go, "Oh yeah, that's me," and so I warn them to the fact that, you know, we're all fallible. And I think that that is one of the challenges in leadership.
we don't want to be fallible. We want to be right. But being right doesn't help anybody. It just doesn't help anybody. So if we don't know, we don't know. so then I say, "So tell me more about the problem," and we unpack how this happened. and so I start sowing the seed again about are they really clear about what the expectations are?
I think they are. If I were to ask them to tell me what they think you expect of them or what their [00:19:00] job role is, what do you think they'd say? And then they go, "Oh." Because they find it hard to actually articulate themselves what they think the job role is. So I say, let me just talk to them both first, and before we proceed to mediation, I'll come back to you and just see if, if there's a different way we can approach this."
so I just gently start having ... I have the conversation first with the leader because at the end of the day, they're the one who needs to go on this journey the most. We do need to work and repair this issue. There's no doubt about that. But without the leader being part of the solution, what will happen is that one or both of those people will leave, and they'll leave because they'll know it's unfair that they are being held responsible for something they didn't create. And that's why I do the work I do. Because I kept going into workplaces as a workplace mediator, and I did it for another company, and I kept on going, "We're fixing the wrong problem here.
Like, why am I trying to get these two people to make this all better when they can't do it [00:20:00] without the leader?" The leader is the one that has actually unintentionally helped create this and then is the only person who can help them resolve it
Bram Lagrou: I'm really curious now, Kate.
look, you speak to me like it's like music to my ears. Here and there I obviously want to push back a little bit and challenge, play devil's advocate. But one thing that I really would like to explore a little bit more, you mentioned, how people don't necessarily intentionally cause the issue.
How do you specifically go about that leadership development? Like, how specifically do you do it? 'Cause leadership development is one of the biggest sectors in the, personal development and professional development space. Lots of dollars are being spent on it.
Kate Russell: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: But how do you actually instill that care, that empathy, that curiosity, that self-awareness? how do you do it?
Kate Russell: Okay. So how I do it, and it doesn't work every time because sometimes leaders, they don't wanna go there, and that's okay. They can make that decision. the way, the way that I do this is I've already started that process when I meet [00:21:00] them. So I, I'm already doing that. What I generally do with people in these circumstances, particularly where we've got entrenched conflict, is I work, I go with the leader and the team.
So it depends on the size of the issue, the team and the issue that we're dealing with. But I often work with the whole team, and I do what I call a team huddle. And in that team huddle I use positive psychology and appreciative, inquiry to explore if we were the best team in the world, what would good look like?
And so we think about, if we were the best team, what would outsiders see? What would it feel like? What would we see inside this team? what would we hear? what would the experience be like if we were in the best team? And we draw trees. and I break people into small groups of two or three people, and they all draw their own tree.
And in the leaves you put all the adjectives. So we have great communication, we've got development and all the things that everybody wants. And then in the trunk and the root system, we then explore, well, what do we need to put in place to [00:22:00] achieve that? What's extraordinary is everybody's tree looks almost the same because everybody wants the same thing.
You know, every organization, everybody wants the same thing. What it does, it aligns everybody. And then what we do is we explore what are the top three things we need to achieve right now?
What are the top three things that we would like to achieve right now? What are going to give us some quick wins? And what happens is, is that the leader is part of that conversation. I'm facilitating it. The leader is always there. They're part of the conversation. If there's multi-tiered, the more leaders, the better.
Like, we are all one. It's not us against them. We're all together. This is our business. And what they hear in that moment and in those discussions is that people want to be seen, heard, and appreciated. They get great clarity about all the things that people want. They get clarity about what is urgent, and so often what is urgent is connection.
I can't tell you the number of times that teams say to me that what we need is to find some [00:23:00] time for team building. We want to be able to find time for team building, and we want it to be meaningful. And drinks after work on Friday doesn't do it. Pizzas, pizza lunches don't necessarily do it. We're looking for connection.
We're wanting time. It might even look like having a coffee, being allowed to go and have one-on-one coffees with people in the team. once a week, we all just go and have coffee with somebody else. Whatever it looks like. But that is so often a priority. And so then the leader is seeing all of this, and they're going, "Ah."
I'm not telling them. Their team is telling them, and that's where the power is in working with leaders and teams about what they want. I use that a lot. I have worked with teams which are so fractured, and we've done this team huddle process, and at the end of it, they walk out going, "Thank you so much.
Thank you so much." And so often people have said, "We have never been asked what we want our culture to look [00:24:00] like, how we want to be. We've never been asked. We've just been told." And so there are so many things that come up in that process which guide the leader about how to be a better leader, how to ask instead of tell, how to empower, all of those things.
So that is my number one tool that I use consistently to assist leaders to become more self-aware.
Bram Lagrou: I love how you said that people love being asked rather than being told.
Kate Russell: Mm.
Bram Lagrou: I see so often, organizations that where the vision, the mission, the goals, the, the culture, the, the behaviors, they're told from the top down on what to do.
And-- like you say, it doesn't work that way.
Kate Russell: No.
Bram Lagrou: one thing I find really remarkable in this whole conversation now, Kate, and which is what I would like to unpack a little bit further, is the idea that you can easily spend time and do so-called team-building activities and do the pizza and the drinks on Friday or a [00:25:00] barbecue and even Christmas family gatherings with the team.
But it's not time spent, it's what you do with that time that makes people feel a certain way. So you can hang out together and still not feel the connection. That's what I'm hearing you say.
Kate Russell: Absolutely.
Bram Lagrou: I personally, as a parent, I always find that our personal life in the family context really teaches us, because kids don't want just time.
They wanna feel connection during the time we have together, right? And I think, like, if you were to kind of use a percentage, how much of the time do people actually feel the connection at work in your experience?
Kate Russell: I would say when people are not stressed, it's hard, it depends on the industry, but it's small.
it's a low percentage. I also do this other matrix where I just say, what does it feel like on a good day? What does it feel like, look like, seem like?" and we draw everybody. And so everybody writes all the things, it's laughing and it's funny and [00:26:00] it's quiet. Like, all these great things.
And then I say, "What percentage of the week feels like this?" And some teams will say 80% of the time. Like, it feels quite good a lot of the time, and that's really good. And then sometimes people will say 20% of the time. But whatever it looks like, I say, "Well, how do we get more of that?" Like, let's get more of what it feels like right now when it's good.
It's difficult to pinpoint what it is, but I think the more stressed people are, stressed and feeling unappreciated is a disaster.
Bram Lagrou: I might be on the wrong track here, but I kind of thought that I picked up along the way that certain industries might be more prone than others for certain things.
Like, like in a way, if I step back, it's a statistical fact that certain industries have higher suicide or depression rates, and so on and so forth. So again, if I were to kind of use that in our conversation here, where do you feel that the industries or the type of [00:27:00] roles that people are in naturally have to become a lot more proactive about this leadership development, this self-awareness, and this connection building piece?
Where do you see that more necessary than anywhere else?
Kate Russell: look it, that's a really good question. the reality is, is that, that going back to DISC, but in very task-focused organizations, they're often-- they make tasks a priority and they don't know necessarily how to manage the people side of things. And I've worked with a number of engineers and scientists in my work, and particularly engineers. They are so-- I love them as clients because they regularly say to me, "Kate, we are really good at going into the weeds, and we love all the detail and all of that. We haven't got a clue how to do this leading business."
And they just own it, and it's really good 'cause we've had problems and I've said, "How would you deal with this?" And they just engineer the problem. so I do think that when we're very, very [00:28:00] task-focused, those industries which, IT, finance, engineering, science, very, very task-focused, we can have great difficulty in managing this.
I've worked with academics. That's a really complex space because it is so competitive, ruthless. If you don't have a PhD, I can't talk to you. I've just seen some behaviors in that space that is really, really, difficult for people to become aware of how their behavior might impact on others.
Bram Lagrou: Mm-hmm.
Kate Russell: I've done a lot of work in local government as well, and I think you have challenges in that space sometimes because we have a very risk-averse group of people who like to control outcomes and things and to feel very safe and then we're not very good-- We might be quite good at doing a bit of the nurturing, but we're still not very good at the appreciation, and we spend all of our time being safe.
And if we're always safe, we don't take risks, and if we don't take risks, we don't grow and develop and that can be really, unsettling and difficult for people as well. So [00:29:00] stresses can happen in a whole range of different ways. But when you've got some peopling happening in businesses where you've got some people who are good at saying hello and remembering people's kids' names and things like that, that helps with the connection.
But when we're going to work and everything is about we go to work to work, and I'm here to get paid and it's like and I'm not gonna be treated as a person but as a machine, as not important. I am here to serve you so you can make the money- That, you know, that's not a very rewarding experience.
Bram Lagrou: Yeah
Kate Russell: And unfortunately, there are some people, you know, I...
My sister worked as a carer in a nursing home for a long time. she's just one of many not considered, not cared for. She doesn't have the skill set to get other work. those become relatively toxic environments as well.
Bram Lagrou: It's interesting, how you mentioned that the idea of carers.
sometimes these roles in society that where [00:30:00] the people are expected and demanded to deliver a lot of care towards the users, the clients, the patients, the visitors, the guests. You know, I think of hospitality, I think of nursing, think of caring, counseling, teachers at times as well.
Very often they're really undervalued. I mean, they're underpaid, that's one. Mm. people just take them for granted. People treat them sometimes inferior, and so on and so forth. Like cleaners, that's another one. Yeah. Sometimes people- Yeah ... don't even talk to them. Yeah. It's very hard to feel valued-
Kate Russell: Yeah
Bram Lagrou: people kind of dismiss you, Mon. Yeah, yeah. and when they don't get... Like, the pay is one thing, but I think it's the other stuff that's even more important, right?
Kate Russell: I have done a lot of work in nursing homes as well. Yes, when people feel appreciated, they give more, they're more likely to turn up to shifts, they're not likely to take unplanned leave, all of those things, and that's what they want in those environments.
But so often the carers, low down on the food chain, just you're a number. [00:31:00] we just need bodies on the floor. And it's just like, no, you need people who care. You need people who care, and you need to care about those people who care because otherwise they get burnt out, they get exhausted.
so, yes, you're so right. It doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter what your role is within the organization, everybody is important.
Bram Lagrou: Mm.
Kate Russell: Everybody is important.
Bram Lagrou: At this point in time, I feel compelled to share a little story, and I know that you love your stories as well, Kate, so I'll just, allow myself to go there for a moment.
Obviously like you, I meet a lot of leaders. I work with a lot of them, and some of them have been my mentors and my guides and the likes. And there's this one particular man that every time when people spoke of him when he wasn't there, they spoke of him with so much high regard and, gratitude.
These were workers working in the company where this guy was the CEO, right? Mm-hmm. And every time, everywhere I went, this went on for about a year or so. Like, every time when I... when somebody mentioned [00:32:00] his name, I could not but notice how positively people spoke about him in his absence.
Mm. So like you, I, I got curious, and I started asking like, "What makes you say, you know, I, I can tell that you really like this person. Why is it that you rate him so highly?" And they would just tell me these really simple things, which I think comes back to your piece of connection. They felt a connection to this person, this leader.
Yeah. And they said, "Look, he's, you know, the top dog. I'm just at the bottom of the food chain. I just happened to one day step into the elevator, and he remembered my name, and we had a really lovely conversation while we were going up at the end of which I thought, 'Well, that's nice.
He spoke to me.'" That's one, brownie point number one. Six months later, this same scenario happens again, and he remembered me and what we spoke about six months prior. I just feel that this person genuinely cares about me. This was the common thread that I [00:33:00] heard time and time people say, no matter their level, no matter how close or distant they were from this leader, "I felt so touched by this."
But these examples, at the best of times, people will say it, but I feel that there's so much potential left untapped. There's so much more opportunities that leaders can foster. what would be your take on that?
Kate Russell: My take on that is there is so much untapped potential because we don't know, we don't know who we've often got in our workplace. We know their skill level. We might have hired them because they presented well. We know a bit about their skill level. But until we really get to know them, we also don't know what more they could do and what potential they have.
It is joyful to spend time with somebody who lights up, and then you see, ah, oh, you could do this as well. What about this? you just, you build so much trust and care for your business when you take the time to get to know people. Yeah, you're so [00:34:00] right.
Being spoken to by the boss and to have somebody remember your name when you perceive your role to be unimportant or low or whatever it is, and to be remembered, that is so special and is so valuable and so much untapped potential because it's not just within the business, it's then how do they speak about your business when they're out there?
How are they promoting your brand, out in the big, wide world? So I just think connection is key. And know thyself. Like, how do I manage myself? what is the impact that I have on my team when I'm stressed? What do I need to do to reduce my stress? What boundaries do I need to put in place so I won't get so stressed?
Like, those are the things that I just think are so critically important.
Bram Lagrou: Back to your point of self-awareness, it's a big one for leaders to be self-aware and understand what behaviors get triggered when they do get stressed. I think that's one thing that I've taken out of one of our coffee meetings, recently where you said like, look, it's really [00:35:00] all about getting people not just to understand their DiSC style, but it's really like what style will they emit, what behaviors will they bring to the workplace when they get stressed and when they feel overwhelmed.
These are the behaviors that we've got to be really mindful of. And look, for everybody understanding, or listening in and watching this podcast, you and I, we both love DiSC. Yeah. We swear by it. we've been on this journey for a little while, and, DiSC obviously is the four traits that people bring behaviorally to a workplace and at home, where- The interesting thing is if you start thinking statistics-wise, there's a high correlation between certain dominant traits and certain workplaces and roles because those traits on the best side will actually be needed to be, for example, decisive and quick and be willing to make decisions with little information and still, you know, get on with and take responsibility for it.
That's a D style trait. 18% of Australians [00:36:00] have a high D style, and it's the one single trait that scores the highest as a single style. And you can imagine there's people that are highly emotional in that style. They've learned it. They've become more self-aware, and they've been looking to create more connection.
But then there's also people that are very low emotionally intelligent with the same style, and they are bullies, they're aggressive, and they put people off. Now, at this point in time, Kate, I wanna rattle the cage a little bit, push back a little bit. I personally at one stage thought that the best leaders are the ones that are very good people-people, right?
Sometimes people in the leadership development space, they believe that great leaders, they care, they're eloquent, they're clear in their [00:37:00] communication, they are nice, they check in with people, they do the one-minute manager type behavior stuff, they care about asking about their personal life, all of this.
But we also know that some of the best leaders have also not necessarily been very big people-people. Like, you know, the Steve Jobs, apparently they're not nice to be around.
Kate Russell: No.
Bram Lagrou: But they still found a way to make people perform well. Like, how does that work, being a good leader and look after your people, but at the same time also going for commercial outcomes?
Like, What's your perspective on great leadership in that sense?
Kate Russell: I think that what Steve Jobs had was he had a very clear vision. He knew where he was going, and so he was clear. And even though he wasn't very good at peopling, 'cause he wasn't, he was very clear and he was inspirational.
So it's like, I want to follow you because even though you're gonna treat me badly [00:38:00] potentially, I trust you. I trust what you're doing is wise. You know where you're going. It makes sense. You've got runs on the board, so there's trust. And I think the book, Creativity Inc., around the Pixar story and, Steve Jobs' relationship with the Pixar, the Pixar story. What he did was he demonstrated, even though he, he didn't have the language for it, but he demonstrated in his actions that he had everyone's, he had their back. And, and so there was a lot of respect for him in that space because he acted with integrity.
He was ruthless. I mean, you know, he knew what he wanted, and he was out there to get it, and he was really clear. But he had integrity. He didn't budge from what he believed in. So I think you can achieve it. I mean, he also was wise, and he would give feedback. He would have lost a number of people along the way.
There's no doubt about it. There would have been [00:39:00] people who said, "You're too hard to work with, and I'm gone." The people who worked stayed with him from what I can gather, 'cause he's got some people who've become famous as a result of his teaching. So he gave very thoughtful feedback. when he spoke, he used words that resonated.
So he wasn't cruel. he was direct, and he was ruthless, but he wasn't cruel. Some people might have said he was unreasonable. You know, he was too tough in the way he responded. But if you listen to the words and you took them on board, he was giving very wise advice. So I think you can be successful in business and you can do all of those things.
But also I think, and one of the things I tell people all the time, is that you don't have to change who you are. Like, yes, I think connection is really critical and all those things are really powerful. But I also are of the belief that you shouldn't have to change who you are. And so one of my stories is, is I was working with a surgeon for some basically some anger management work.
And, and [00:40:00] she had a potty mouth. So she would be in surgery, and she'd get really stressed, It's a training hospital, and so she'd get really stressed with some of the registrars and she'd start swearing and carrying on, and they got intimidated by her and they'd lodge a formal complaint and all the things happened.
And she came to see me and she said, "Look, I, I don't wanna change. Like, I, I ... Some people find me really funny," all of these things. And I said, "I don't think you have to change. I think what you need to do is you just need to forewarn people that when you get stressed, this is what it looks like so that, so that they're not shocked."
Because often it is this how can she behave like this? Like, we're trainees and she's swearing and all of that. So anyway, she did. And I adored her. she went to her registrars and she said, "Look, we're going into surgery. Things can go wrong. when ... Whatever happens, and I
If I get excited and, and start swearing and, and/or stressed, whatever, this is not personal. This is not about you. This is just my response in the moment. It's [00:41:00] not personal and you're okay. And I think we're okay." And anyway, it worked an absolute treat because she did that. The registrars loved her.
They thought she was even funnier than ever because when she did it, it was like, "Oh, here she goes." So it stopped being scary because she owned it. And I think when leaders own who they are and they own their behavior and they can share it, and that doesn't sometimes make it okay. Like, it's not okay for that leader to jump up and down and scream at them, will do what I say."
But if your style is very direct, and you're clear and you're precise, you should say, "Look, You need to know this about me. This is how I am. It's not personal. This is how I am. I'm working on it, but this is who I am." And I found that when leaders own their stuff, when they can say, "This is who I am.
This is what I look like. I am fallible like everybody else. I'm not being direct because I'm perfect. I'm being direct because this is how I react under stress because I can see the solution and this is where I think we need to go," I think if they can use that language, then they sort of create a bubble [00:42:00] around themselves which make them safer to be with.
Bram Lagrou: Mm-hmm.
Kate Russell: It's when behavior is unpredictable, it's when it's that bipolar stuff, it is really, really scary. But it becomes less bipolar if we know it's going to happen. And then also I think that the more we are aware of what we do look like and our impact when we are stressed- The more we then are less likely to sometimes go to the extremes of that behavior.
Bram Lagrou: I've got a funny question for you. An interesting one probably. If you were to think about the four different styles on the DiSC, and by the way, for everybody watching, it's known for a fact that most of us, we have one or two styles out of the four, which means even though you might think, oh, we're a mix of, we are and we're not.
We'll emit certain behaviors more so than any others. it's like speaking languages. You either speak one or two languages, but you don't speak all languages under the sun. It's the same idea. Yeah. The question I have now for you, Kate, is if you were to think, like, and kind of make it simple, right?
Just think of one style each time. What do you [00:43:00] think a D leader really needs to learn as a leader? What do you think a C leader will really need to learn as a leader? what do they feel challenged by, in a way? What does an S leader really needing, and what does an I leader really needs from your perspective?
Kate Russell: I think that a D need leader needs to learn empathy. I think an I leader needs to learn patience. Slow down-
Bram Lagrou: Mm-hmm ...
Kate Russell: I think an S leader needs to learn courage. I think they need to take risks. So they need to learn courage. And I think a C leader needs to learn curiosity.
I think they need to learn that they're not always right. So to ask the question, "What don't I know?" 'Cause they like knowing everything. Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: Interesting. And, you're right. Like, some people think that as a leader they're supposed to know, and they find it very hard to own up to the fact that they might not know.
Mm. And they say it. They think, like, everybody expecting me to know that [00:44:00] what I'm doing is right and tell them what to do. No, is what you're saying. It's okay to not know. Yeah. And ask why.
Kate Russell: Yeah.
Bram Lagrou: Beautiful. I love this. one last question here that I, I felt like when I saw a post recently, it was actually by somebody who was also working a lot in the culture space, and, I just sometimes see that certain organizations, certain sectors, industries- Mm
they very much go too hard on the soft metrics.
Kate Russell: Yeah. This
Bram Lagrou: is my perspective. As in making it too much about making people feel safe and- feel included and listened to, and they do, they invest so much in that. And then I wonder, like, but what are you guys actually achieving? What are you guys actually doing?
Like, how are you improving what you're doing? I'd like your perspective on this. Like, is it possible that the team might feel too good, but the team isn't growing, they're not stretching, they're not achieving anything?
Kate Russell: I think [00:45:00] that that's a, very wise position to raise.
I think that can happen. It can be too nice, because that's then telling me is we're still not clear about what we're trying to achieve. We're not clear on our vision. We haven't set any goals or stretch goals. we're being nice without holding ourselves accountable.
So, it's important to have connection. It is true, and we do wanna feel safe, but safe doesn't mean comfortable. It's different. And this is where I think a lot of the language around psychological safety is misinterpreted, particularly by employees, because they think that safe means comfortable.
But safe doesn't mean comfortable. Safe means we can speak up and speak our truth and disagree, and know that we're not going to get sacked. That type of thing. That is not the same as an employer coming to, somebody in their team and saying, "We need to talk about your performance." And this might be an uncomfortable conversation, but how can we work together to achieve whatever we need to [00:46:00] achieve?
So I think... Because the other thing too is we go to work to show off. So if we don't have a clear vision about what we're trying to achieve, and we don't get the opportunity to celebrate that we have hit a goal or we are working towards a target then that's not very rewarding either, is it?
It's nice, but nice is not safe. nice is absolutely not safe. it is comfortable until it- and then it will become uncomfortable. Because chances are, if we don't start achieving, then it's like, well, why be here either? Like, that's not much fun. I think this is why leadership is so complex.
there's nothing easy about leadership. it has got so many different elements to it at all times. But it's how do you grow leaders? Where do you want to go? What does good look like? And then how do we get there? and keep asking instead of telling.
you do not have all the answers, and you do not want to not tap into the wisdom of your team. Because chances are there's an enormous amount there, and they care deeply, and they want to be [00:47:00] part of the solution, and they don't want to be the problem.
Bram Lagrou: Gosh, there's so much to unpack together here, Kate.
And I get excited, and I could very easily lose track of time. But I assume- it would be the same 'cause we both are very passionate about this stuff. Look, I took a lot out of this conversation. So first of all, thank you. Pleasure ... the future looks bright.
Kate Russell: Yes.
Bram Lagrou: What's next for you? Just more on a personal you thing.
Like, 'cause you do you, Kate, and you do it really well.
Kate Russell: I think for me, I wanna do more professional speaking around having conversations. I think one of the greatest tools that we have in our toolbox is conversations, and we don't know how to use them. And I want to teach leaders how to have better conversations.
So I have created, a set of conversation compass cards, to assist leaders to prepare for important conversations. It's not telling people what to say. It is literally helping people to slow down and self-reflect and think about, if this conversation went really well, then what would that outcome [00:48:00] look like, and so what do I need to put in place to achieve that in this conversation?
So I want to teach leaders how to have these conversations because not having conversations is probably more damaging than having conversations. But we're often so scared, we're so unsure about how to have them, what do we need to say or do. So I'm very keen to do that. I'm very keen to, assist people communicate more effectively because I think that if leaders felt more confident in their conversations and their communication, I think they would lead better, and they would lead with greater psychological safety because they'd know who they are as well.
they, they're doing that reflection work. So for me personally, professional speaking, getting my cards out there and talking with people, and doing some work with you, around DISC and sharing that because I think DISC is just such a powerful tool in that know thyself.
I use it all the time. I use it in conflict situations because it helps, because we're self-assessing. Nobody's telling us this is our behavioral style, we're telling ourselves. And what that piece of [00:49:00] information tells us is this is our strengths, here are our strengths, and this is what our strengths look like when we're under stress.
And every person has exaggerated behaviors when they are stressed. Where do we go when we're stressed? And we so need to know that when we are leaders, because- that is what our team is looking at, and what is the impact of that stress? So I use it all the time, and it, helps me in so many ways to think about how do I work with this problem?
How do I work with these people who are experiencing this challenge right now? And it helps them to start getting out of their own heads and thinking about me, me, me. It's like, how do I help this other person hear this information that they're struggling to hear? That's it. So that's what I want to do.
and I want to just keep, helping people see people as being good and not difficult.
Bram Lagrou: Beautiful. I love this. I really appreciate this, and there's always a saying, people are predictable. If you understand- where they're coming from, because you have a model
In your toolbox that you can deploy, you [00:50:00] can kind of predict what's next. You can also then predict that so-called difficulties that initially present themselves are actually not a difficulty at all because you know how to deal with them, right? Yes. So it gives you confidence, it relaxes you more, so therefore you're less stressed.
I always say people are predictable, difficulties with people are preventable, and communication mastery is the way. So the more we actually as leaders learn how to communicate more clearly, more inclusively, more warmly, more safely- Mm ... and at the same time also do it in a way that is clear in terms of what's expected in terms of outcomes, the better everybody will do at home and at work.
Mm. Now, Kate, I want to say very much thank you for your time and making yourself available, and I love what you represent and what you do. So, again, everybody watching, this was The Commercial Leader Podcast. We look forward to seeing you again next time.
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